Rough Running.....Again

Side valve, 803, 948, 1098., 1275 and Vizard mods

Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:15 pm

Hello. I'm hoping for a bit of assistance here on a issue with my 1970" Minor. For the last few months, I've had it off the road while it's had some major changes done to it. I've given it the general service, and then some. I've replaced the solenoid, plugs, HT leads, starter motor, carb, clutch, air/oil filters, brake shoes, and also changed from an electronic ignition, to points and condenser.

Finally, last week, the car fired up nice and easy, without choke either, which is strange in the freezing cold, and I ran it for about 30 minutes, on Thursday, then again on Friday, But, the weird thing is, once it's warmed up, it starts to become very sluggish. Once it's put into gear, first, second etc, it doesn't have much power at all, even a good press on the accelerator doesn't get it to shift that much, mostly it spends its time trying to slowly rock back and forth. Clutch & accelerator control are all fine on my end, as is the gearbox control from my side. After adjusting the timing, and getting it to supposed good idle speed, it still sounds, and does the same. Everything is gapped and sorted to where it needs to be, I've had a mobile mechanic come out twice to check these things to make sure either one of us hasn't missed something the first time.

He came out again today, and told me the plugs were covered in oil, and I've been told that one of the valve stem oil seals needs replacing. My question is, would this really make the car behave the bad way it's behaving?, or could/would they're be something else at fault also?. As I say, for the first 30 minutes or so before it really warms up, it runs like a dream, way better than it ever did before I took it off the road.

I'm really hoping to get this done as quick as possible really, we're about 12 days away from Christmas and don't fancy sitting out doing it on Christmas Eve :lol:
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby woodywoodchipper » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:05 pm

you need to find out why the plug is oiling.

it will deffo effect it more as it warms(oil thins)

identify the culprit,

have you done a compression test,,,, what are the readings +/- 5

if low comp engine should be 125 high comp 160+

Alan.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Custard » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:07 pm

Definitely oil on the plugs, not black and wet with fuel.

I would normally think it is running overly rich if it starts easily on a cold day without choke.

Also it has not been serviced and modern thin oil put in by any chance.

When you say it runs ok until it warms up, is that running on the road under load or just ticking over for a while.

I would do the compression test as suggested by Woody, and see what that reveals first.

Sean.
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I've managed to do a compression test, with the Christmas rush I was unable to do it for a long time as you can tell. The test scores are good, I did one wet test and one dry test, and both scores came back nice and high.

I arranged for a mechanic to pop put and check it out, he told me that due to the oil being on the plugs, the mixture is too rich, BUT it's NOT causing this much oil. He has told me to fit new valve stem steals and see if that stops the issue.

My question now, is does anyone have a proper diagram of which valves are which? a picture or complete explanation?, because I'm told putting seals on the exhaust isn't really needed.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Custard » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:45 pm

Stood at the Radiator looking towards the battery you can see the manifolds on the right.

The cast iron is the exhaust and the alloy is the inlet.

So four cylinders two valves for each.

So from the front

Exhaust Cylinder 1
Inlet Cylinder 1

Inlet Cylinder 2
Exhaust Cylinder 2

Exhaust Cylinder 3
Inlet Cylinder3

Inlet Cylinder 4
Exhaust Cylinder 4.

Sean.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:24 pm

Custard wrote:Stood at the Radiator looking towards the battery you can see the manifolds on the right.

The cast iron is the exhaust and the alloy is the inlet.

So four cylinders two valves for each.

So from the front

Exhaust Cylinder 1
Inlet Cylinder 1

Inlet Cylinder 2
Exhaust Cylinder 2

Exhaust Cylinder 3
Inlet Cylinder3

Inlet Cylinder 4
Exhaust Cylinder 4.

Sean.


Thanks Sean, this helped a bunch. Except now I'm stuck with the trouble of finding the old? type valve collet for one of the cylinders, I ordered one from ESM a few weeks back, only now have I checked it (Silly me) and it's the wrong type, the one I have doesn't have the groove in the top of it. Does anyone still sell the groove type collets anywhere?

EDIT: ESM say two of these will fit together to fit one unit, but one of their own does not compare to the same size as the old collet that I have. So I'm not quite sure how to get around this issue.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby old english white » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:17 pm

There are many more Morris Minor parts specialists than just ESM aren't there. In all the years I've run Minors I've never been stuck for parts after a few telephone calls.... Just do a bit of phoning around :)
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:24 pm

old english white wrote:There are many more Morris Minor parts specialists than just ESM aren't there. In all the years I've run Minors I've never been stuck for parts after a few telephone calls.... Just do a bit of phoning around :)


Cheers White, I'm tempted to buy another one of ESM's collets as they say two will fit.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Custard » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:25 pm

Engine parts are often the same as a mini so mini suppliers should be considered as well.

Is this what you are after?

http://minispares.com/product/Classic/E ... ssic/valve collets.aspx|Back to search

Sean.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:34 pm

Custard wrote:Engine parts are often the same as a mini so mini suppliers should be considered as well.

Is this what you are after?

http://minispares.com/product/Classic/E ... ssic/valve collets.aspx|Back to search

Sean.


That's like the one I've ended up with Sean yeah, but the one I lost, and preferably the one I'm trying to get hold of, is this one Image
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Custard » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:50 pm

Ah, I see, you have the external clips as well then like this?

Scroll down a bit cylinder head on its side on the left.

http://www.rick-ford.co.uk/EBay/12G202f ... 2fiona.htm

Unfortunately I had some on an engine that went complete.

Sean.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 pm

Custard wrote:Ah, I see, you have the external clips as well then like this?

Scroll down a bit cylinder head on its side on the left.

http://www.rick-ford.co.uk/EBay/12G202f ... 2fiona.htm

Unfortunately I had some on an engine that went complete.

Sean.



There should be clips on the head, but there isn't any, which is strange. All's I can think is that they've been taken off, and either forgotten to be put back on, or some bright spark decided they'd be best left off
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Custard » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:34 pm

I am not sure why the clips are there to be honest.

The collet is wedged in the cap when the valve spring pressure is there.

I would have thought there is more chance of a spring falling off than there is of a collet without a spring coming loose.

Though there are valves with three grooves and then the collet has three as well.

I must admit I am not sure of the history, which engines got which valves etc.

My 1275 is using the collets like your new one i.e. single internal groove no external one.

I would post up in the wanted section as someone may have a box of spares from old heads.

Sean.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby Martinminor89 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:06 pm

Custard wrote:I am not sure why the clips are there to be honest.

The collet is wedged in the cap when the valve spring pressure is there.

I would have thought there is more chance of a spring falling off than there is of a collet without a spring coming loose.

Though there are valves with three grooves and then the collet has three as well.

I must admit I am not sure of the history, which engines got which valves etc.

My 1275 is using the collets like your new one i.e. single internal groove no external one.

I would post up in the wanted section as someone may have a box of spares from old heads.

Sean.


Cheers Sean. This car has got me going around in circles most days, it's not been properly driven for a good few months now, this is probably the last job to do to get it top notch, and now the simplest, and literally the smallest thing is causing me a bit of an issue. I've taken your advice and posted in the wanted forum, hopefully someone can help with it.
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Re: Rough Running.....Again

Postby philthehill » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:21 pm

In reply as to why the circlip was fitted to the early 'A' Series valve collets:-
The circlip BMC Pt No: 2A12 was fitted to hold the two collets BMC Pt No: 2A11 (single) together.
Without the circlip it was found that In some circumstances with weak valve springs and high engine revs one or more collet could become detached/spring out from the valve stem and valve spring cap and allow the valve to drop.
Later - better production methods, quality control and revised design allowed the discontinuance of the circlip.
The collets facilitate the use of the circlip were taller to accommodate the circlip above the valve spring cap.
Later valve stem collets are BMC Pt No: 88G459 (pair).
Collets (Pt No: CAM6995) for use with 'triple groove' valve stems were fitted and used on some 'A' Plus engines.
So long as the valve springs fitted are in good condition and the collets are well seated into the valve spring cap there is no requirement for the circlip to be fitted even if the collets have the circlip groove.
It is perfectly satisfactory to use the later non circlip collets on early engines but I would advise that they are replaced in full sets i.e. qty 16.
Phil
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